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> Engine rebuild, top end rebuild (this is pissing me off)
6@@R
Posted: Jan 12 2010, 05:20 AM
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Can anyone tell me what would cause a air leak past the cylinders? Its leaking on the right side of the cylinder head cover, which i have know idea why. The only thing i could think of is a crack somewhere along the cylinder jacket which would make it leak where the cam chain is, Im not hearing anything coming out of the exhaust or the intake so no stuck valve, and i made sure the piston rings were off set and i havent seen any cracks in the cylinder bloc or its jacket... Heres the psi reading for the cylinders 1=80 2=75 3=0 4=0, so i know theirs a major leak somewhere i just cant figure it out. Thats problem number 1 # two is problems with rotating the crank from the timing rotor when the cams are in. I dont know how this would happed but it just gets stuck somewhere.. it only gives enough for the cam chain tensioner to come all the way out, and the cams are seated correctly. And when i take the cams out and just hold the chain and then rotate the crank it will do just fine its just when the cams are in bluduh.gif nothing is hitting the caps either sad2.gif
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racinfast002
Posted: Jan 12 2010, 07:53 AM
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so you have no compression on those two cylinders when the cams are in? But they have compression when the cams are out?

If that is the case, check your valve lash. Something is wack in the valve train.
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Z3n
Posted: Jan 12 2010, 11:27 AM
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Sounds like you bent valves. Those reading are seriously low.

If you're stuck when you rotate it by hand with the cams in, but freely otherwise, you're making contact with the valves to the piston heads. Check your timing marks.
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pengaru
Posted: Jan 12 2010, 12:07 PM
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yeah sounds like piston to valve interference.
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6@@R
Posted: Jan 12 2010, 03:37 PM
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im sure i counted 34 pins in between the cams so im sure timing's on point. As for bent valves wouldnt i have heard something coming from the intake or exhaust?? i do have another cylinder head you guys think i should just swap them??
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bobl
Posted: Jan 12 2010, 04:08 PM
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If the motor is still in the chassis, you can remove the carbs, and the pipes, and pour in a little kerosene, or diesel on top of the valves, covering the heads/seats when the valve is completely closed. You can check them all at once by pulling the cams out. If the puddle runs into the motor, bent or damaged valves. That's what it sounds like. Do you have the service manual? Are you sure you don't have the intake cam and the exhaust cam mixed up? I would check for valve seal first, and double check the cam timing as per the manual. Aftrer that, it's time to pull the head.
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Z3n
Posted: Jan 12 2010, 04:13 PM
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QUOTE (6@@R @ Jan 12 2010, 12:37 PM)
im sure i counted 34 pins in between the cams so im sure timing's on point. As for bent valves wouldnt i have heard something coming from the intake or exhaust?? i do have another cylinder head you guys think i should just swap them??

34 pins is only half the equation...the other half is getting the cams lined up against the head.

If you can't rotate the engine over when you've got the cams in, but can when they are out, you are making valve/piston contact somewhere. There will be some resistance from the compression of the engine, but if it's hitting solid, then you're making contact somewhere. You need to fix that, and hope that you don't have bent valves.
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6@@R
Posted: Jan 13 2010, 12:56 AM
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Thanks for all the feedback guys...i did end up trying to swap the whole head and still no change. i also looked down the #4 intake boot while it was tdc for the 1 & 4 piston and i could see the valve open so it is hitting the piston but why would it if the timings correct???

bobl i do have the service manual and thats what iv been using for a ref, but it is the clymer book. bluduh.gif. The cam's are in the right place, iv checked the marks on the cams.I will try the diesel thing next.

Z3n i aligned the intake mark and the exhaust mark on the cam to the top of the cylinder head and counted 34 pins between the sprockets.
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triop
Posted: Jan 13 2010, 02:02 AM
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I've got a copy of the Haynes manual i could email if you want to compare the timing instructions with the Clymer manual - sometimes they explain them slightly different.

If not the timing, bent or stuck valves (which should be eliminated by changing the head) Only thing i can suggest is maybe the timing chain is not meshed correctly on the crank? or throwing slack and getting trapped.
Interesting one
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Z3n
Posted: Jan 13 2010, 01:37 PM
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QUOTE (6@@R @ Jan 12 2010, 09:56 PM)
Thanks for all the feedback guys...i did end up trying to swap the whole head and still no change. i also looked down the #4 intake boot while it was tdc for the 1 & 4 piston and i could see the valve open so it is hitting the piston but why would it if the timings correct???

bobl i do have the service manual and thats what iv been using for a ref, but it is the clymer book. bluduh.gif. The cam's are in the right place, iv checked the marks on the cams.I will try the diesel thing next.

Z3n i aligned the intake mark and the exhaust mark on the cam to the top of the cylinder head and counted 34 pins between the sprockets.

If they're hitting, the timing's not correct.

The reason for this can be either you have the cams in backwards (intake in exhaust, exhaust in intake), or the timing is off. Do you have the cam chain tensioner in? If you don't, and the cams are installed, it's easy to get it off a couple of teeth.

The timing chain is also a possibility. But if you can hold the chain and rotate it by hand with no kinking, and you can see that the chain is meshed clearly, you should be fine.
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FasterThanUr
Posted: Jan 13 2010, 01:56 PM
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Everything might be aligned but 180 out maybe shrug.gif just a thought...
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pengaru
Posted: Jan 13 2010, 03:05 PM
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BTW, for when you crank the motor by hand to see if anything interferes, leave out the spark plugs if you're not already...

This allows you to use less force and provides more sensitivity to interference problems, making detection before causing damage more likely.
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6@@R
Posted: Jan 13 2010, 04:35 PM
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Troip I would really appretiate it If you could send me the haynes manual.

Z3N the cam chain is in and iv checked that the cam chain is properly meshed.. bluduh.gif is I guess I just have to double check everything.

Fasterthanur the 180 is a goodone I'll check it.

Pengaru the sparkplugs are out.

So I guess everything Is pointing towards the timing so I'll double check everything and get back to you guys, thanks for the ideas and info.
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mkselecta
Posted: Jan 13 2010, 05:45 PM
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Your chain may be meshed properly now, but the top end assembly could still be out of phase with the bottom end. Down inside the engine block, the chain meshes with a gear that gets turned by the crank. If it ends up on a different tooth on that gear, then your timing will be wrong even though everything else on top looks right. I think that this is how I blew the motor on my 250. In my case I dropped the chain into the valley and had to fish it out.
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lucky72
Posted: Jan 13 2010, 06:50 PM
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I am guessing you have the intake/exhaust cam in the right spot??? In the Toyota world swapping the cams is a common mistake smile2.gif
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racinfast002
Posted: Jan 13 2010, 08:14 PM
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whats the compression numbers without the cams in the motor?
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Antimatter
Posted: Jan 13 2010, 09:47 PM
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QUOTE (racinfast002 @ Jan 13 2010, 08:14 PM)
whats the compression numbers without the cams in the motor?

Same as with the cams in? Isn't pressure measured at TDC?
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racinfast002
Posted: Jan 14 2010, 09:20 PM
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QUOTE (Antimatter @ Jan 13 2010, 09:47 PM)
QUOTE (racinfast002 @ Jan 13 2010, 08:14 PM)
whats the compression numbers without the cams in the motor?

Same as with the cams in? Isn't pressure measured at TDC?

most the time I'd agree, but in his case, I'm thinking thats his problem. I want to know what he gets without the cams in the engine
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6@@R
Posted: Jan 15 2010, 12:40 AM
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ok guys so today i re-looked everything and still the same thing.I made sure the intake and exhaust cams were in the right place and made sure that the timing was correct. 34 pins etc etc....oh i also figure i might as well be looking for a way to fix the compression issue first off rather than the timing issue cuz even if i get the timing right i still would have to open it up again to fix the compression, but i really appreciate you guys helping me with the timing issue as well. Unless you guys think these things could be tied together??? Oh and the compression is still low with or without the cam's in.

mkselecta i have dropped the cam chain in the valley and i did the same thing as you did. Do you think that would be my problem?? how would i go abouts fixing it?

antimatter since the first post iv looked over the piston rings and it turned out that 3 & 4's piston rings were not of set so i corrected that but still no big change in psi, it might as well be the same as before.

so i figure i might as well give you guys a real look at what my problems are so i decided to get my video recorder out tomorrow.
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Z3n
Posted: Jan 15 2010, 10:55 AM
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If you're getting the same compression readings with the cams in or out, you either have bent valves or the rings aren't sealing correctly. Try what bob mentioned, with filling the intake with diesel or some other fluid and seeing if it leaks through.
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triop
Posted: Jan 15 2010, 12:42 PM
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YGM

I shouldnt worry to much about the compression yet - readings are usually only accurate when cranking. If you're sure about the cam timings what about removing the valves from each cylinder in turn to find out which ones are binding in a process of elimination.

Other things that spring to mind which might sound silly

Head gasket correct thickness?

Shims in the right place?

Backing the camshaft clamp bolts off - making sure the caps are not clamping the cams

Are all the valves free to open

Is the TDC indicator accurate ? - once had this on a truck where the timing plate was tin and had been force on the keyway, found TDC by putting a pencil in the cylinder. Looking at the diagram it looks possible to shear the locating pin on the timing disc by turning the engine with it but im not sure



Whats the history of the engine?
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6@@R
Posted: Jan 16 2010, 05:12 PM
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sorry guys iv been busy with work, but tonight for sure im gonna get the recorder out.
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triop
Posted: Jan 24 2010, 01:15 PM
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any news?
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6@@R
Posted: Feb 7 2010, 08:37 AM
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yeh same place i was still @... i just need someone else to look at the timing.So im having a buddy of mine look @ it on tues bluduh.gif unless anyone is located near Salinas, ca meaning anyone with in an hours drive. shrug.gif. And iv even rechecked with both the haynes and clymer. VERY FRUSTRATING... but good news is im picking up a 04 R6 so its not all bad for me.
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pengaru
Posted: Feb 7 2010, 11:11 AM
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QUOTE (6@@R @ Feb 7 2010, 09:37 AM)
yeh same place i was still @... i just need someone else to look at the timing.So im having a buddy of mine look @ it on tues bluduh.gif unless anyone is located near Salinas, ca meaning anyone with in an hours drive. shrug.gif. And iv even rechecked with both the haynes and clymer. VERY FRUSTRATING... but good news is im picking up a 04 R6 so its not all bad for me.

I'm not too far from there (san mateo) and the drive down 1 is nice... except today I need to finish installing a torsen in my gf's miata.

But here are some ideas:
1: Did you check the timing chain for stretch as per the manual? The 20 link length is supposed to be 127-127.4 mm, with a max spec of 128.9mm
2: Verify this is the exact procedure you used for timing the cams: http://pengaru.com/~swivel/bikes/zx6e/manu...3_engine/13.jpg

Not sure when I'd be able to come out and give you a hand, if after Tuesday you still can't get it right maybe next weekend? I've put an E motor back together twice before...
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6@@R
Posted: Feb 8 2010, 11:45 PM
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Yeh i could definitely used your help pengaru. thanks just let me know if your still available.
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singram
Posted: Feb 19 2010, 07:56 AM
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So what did you guys find?
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pengaru
Posted: Feb 19 2010, 02:15 PM
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yeah what's the story? I should have some extra time in the coming weeks if you still need help.
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6@@R
Posted: Feb 22 2010, 06:05 AM
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Yeh if you have sometime pengaru could you come down? i could use the extra help
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